WFMU: Techtonic with Mark Hurst: Playlist from November 27, 2017

Listener comments!
	6:03pm melinda: hi all!
	6:05pm listener james from westwood: Evening, Mark, melinda, and all!
	6:07pm Listener Robert: How did WFMU's streaming fare BEFORE net neutrality was adopted ~2 yrs. ago?
	6:11pm Linda Lee: so pleased to hear Techtonic tonight. good evening everyone.
	6:12pm Linda Lee: do believe it's older than that, Listener Robert :-)
	🤖 6:13pm Ken From Hyde Park: Net Neuter-ality
	6:13pm Michael 98145: @LR, i believe there was some throttling performed by monopolies like Comcast
	6:14pm Linda Lee: didn't feel it! good comic.
	6:14pm Michael 98145: ... but that only hit large file downloads
	6:16pm Linda Lee: what was the "founding spirit" of US military development of the web? do wonder about that.
	6:16pm Listener Robert: No, it was discussed for many yrs., and not adopted by Congress, but the FCC adopted it by interpretation only about 2 yrs. ago.
	6:18pm Linda Lee: ah. ok. it's been under attack for longer than it's been official then.
	6:20pm Michael 98145: the internetwork was developed to provide connectivity without specific message routing
	6:21pm Tommy in Neversink: Congress doesn't decide , go to the FCC's site and comment
	6:21pm Evan From Seattle: Facebook, Google, Amazon are in favor of net neutrality because its good for everyone and keeps them from having to pay more to retain users. But if it goes away, they are the ones that would benefit almost as much as the utility companies since the barrier to entry for any online enterprise would go way up because they could pay to keep everyone out of the fast lane (and create their own for the "little people" - basically like what Amazon already does with their 3rd party sellers). Its a grim future, even more so without net neutrality.
	6:22pm Barbara: Thank you for this clear and insightful analysis. I really needed to hear it. Please archive as soon as possible. It needs to be heard widely.
	6:22pm Listener Robert: But 20 yrs. ago we HAD companies offering these private nets with gateways to the Internet, and the Internet won. That is, the traffic wound up going overwhelmingly thru the Internet rather than to the private content -- and prices came down, too. So what would make you think companies would want to go back to the less profitable service they couldn't sell then?
	6:22pm Mark Hurst: Hi all! Thanks for the good comments. Will be drawing on these comments & your calls later in the show.
	6:24pm Michael 98145: i remember the days when -networking- meant leased phone lines
	6:24pm Linda Lee: @Tommy in Neversink ~ yes, 5 people are in charge of this decision. ~ beta.latimes.com...
	6:25pm Tommy in Neversink: Robert, IKR......that's what I keep thinking . Net Neutrality didn't' start until 2015 and the net worked pretty good before that
	6:26pm Tommy in Neversink: Linda....yes, two will vote to keep neutrality and 3 will vote against it , as it stand now
	6:27pm Evan From Seattle: 20 years ago what happened was broadband started going mainstream. Cable and DSL. Private networks, that you used to be able to get your dial up internet access from back in the day started trying to compete by offering DSL packages, but they died because the landscape became less about choice and more about speed, and the phone companies that controlled the infrastructure came out with their own offerings that killed the small providers, many of who moved into business networking infrastructure if they were able to survive. And nobody could compete with cable for the same reason, because they controlled the infrastructure and nobody could use it. That's why there's like "two" competing DSL providers in an area but only the one cable company.
	6:29pm Michael 98145: turn off your instagram and listen to music - www.instagram.com...
	6:30pm Tommy in Neversink: Evan....you sure do your homework
	6:30pm listener james from westwood: No easily dorm-accessible internet back during my college days; had I gone merely a couple of years later, I'd have been in the AOL/Compuserve era. Had I gone post-FB et al, I'd have a GPA of like –3.
	6:31pm melinda: @james same here.
	6:32pm Michael 98145: never realized in 1989 that today i'd be listening to FMU
	6:33pm βrian: I love that you can punctuate easily on an iPhone, or add diacritics. But beyond that ...
	6:34pm Tommy in Neversink: Why is assumed that the providers will be anti -progressive. We are probably over half their market
	6:34pm βrian: Not cutting down trees; burning oil/coal instead.
	6:34pm steve: in the past year ive killed all my non-business related facebook, twitter, instagram and now am looking to downgrade from my iphone... but i need a map to find my way around nyc and elsewhere... is there halfway point between a classic flip phone and a smartphone that will give me google maps or something similar but no web browser etc... or should i revert to paper maps (which i'd be open to)?
	6:36pm dale: i've never had a smart phone. last flip phone was an lg that i had for 8 years and i only upgraded to a bigger lg flip phone because my eyes weren't what they were.
	6:36pm listener james from westwood: Good interview and slice of life! Interesting that he and others at UVA struggle w/ deleting apps, kicking the habit, etc. Breaks the stereotype of unheeding, mindless use of social media that some folks my age & older have re: the yout', as Joe Pesci might say.
	6:36pm coelacanth∅: i have a "smartphone" with a call/text plan. $15./month. i would've preferred a basic flip phone but they don't offer them, even though it's a non-internet plan. ...i fucking hate the touch screen bullshit. so inefficient and illogical.
	6:37pm melinda: I like paper maps.
	6:37pm Dean: A colleague of mine, Diane Mizrachi at UCLA, has been studying undergraduate students' preferences for print or digital when they study. There are strong preferences for print. http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0099133315000506
	6:38pm coelacanth∅: steve they (you know -"they") sell excellent laminated maps of the city, and a different one of the 5 boroughs, that fold into a manageable size. a good investment.
	6:38pm Evan From Seattle: Thanks Tommy, but I just lived through it and watched it happen from having internet early on to relying on it for my work today. And the providers will be anti-progressive because its more profitable. Businesses don't have ideals beyond making money. And there's a lot more money to be made by controlling the flow of information than doing something nice for people.
	6:39pm dale: my wife is browsing on her smart phone right now - even though she has a laptop and an ipad and desktop computer. i'm sure she goes way over her time/data.
	6:39pm steve: another reason social media breaks people's brains (maybe he said this) is that it tells people to rely on external rewards (likes, which simply equal approval of others) rather than internal rewards.
	6:40pm steve: good advice coela... i remember those! i used to have one of manhattan.
	6:41pm Evan From Seattle: Also, as more and more people have cut the cord internet providers such as comcast have put in data transfer limits. I've gotten hit with warnings from them about it just from backing up my 15+ years of digital family photo archives to cloud service backups. This is going to continue and prices will go up across the board without net neutrality.
	6:41pm βrian: Three days of complete solitude, at least once every year or two.
	6:42pm Linda Lee: stands to reason that less direct social engagement = depression. that's a given. & girls will own up.
	6:42pm Evan From Seattle: Facebook I believe got busted for experimenting with their news feed algorithim a few months ago to manipulate people into seeing depressing stuff then serving them more targeted ads. There was some sort of trouble with the EU about it, I think it was in France. They are evil incarnate.
	6:44pm melinda: Not at all surprising that laptops and tablets are distractions.
	6:44pm βrian: Screen discipline comes from within.
	6:44pm Linda Lee: ~Tommy ~ i'm assuming attention to the bottom line primarily is always regressive.
	🤖 6:45pm Ken From Hyde Park: The school district here is rolling out Chromebooks for all the students. Erk!
	6:45pm βrian: @Hey, Melinda!
	6:45pm melinda: hi Brian!
	6:46pm Linda Lee: apparently still allowed here in the states, Evan.
	6:46pm Krys O.: I believe that depressive behavior in teenage girls predates the smartphone. It's a societal issue, not one of technology. There are SO MANY other reasons why young women begin to show a marked increase in low self-esteem. I am skeptical of the corollary drawn in the study that Brooks quotes. Oh, and Brooks is notorious for making uninformed leaps of logic.
	6:46pm Linda Lee: steve, i think we always rely on external rewards. human nature ~ which is being exploited.
	6:47pm βrian: @Melinda: Watched Fishing with John, if you didn't get my ping. Lovely! Thanks.
	6:48pm βrian: SAYPs!
	6:48pm Phil with the phone: Call in at 201-209-9368!
	6:48pm Evan From Seattle: The other problem with losing net neutrality is we can say goodbye to entrepreneurship and the myth of "just a guy in his garage with a great idea" that seems to have started with Steve Jobs but is now attached to Jeff Bezos. It's hard enough as it is to make a go with a legitimate business without serious funding, let alone a startup, but imagine if you can't get your app or information about it out there without substantially paying, or that people interested might not be able to go to your site because their plan only includes Facebook and Amazon, and closes off the rest of the net. I'll shut up now, I'm just so glad to have a place to discuss this and hear about it on WFMU. Such a great show.
	6:48pm Phil with the phone: I am the greatest
	6:48pm Linda Lee: Krys O, aren't they discussing an increase in symptoms from some determined baseline?
	6:49pm Linda Lee: not that i'm a fan of David Brooks. he's silly.
	6:49pm melinda: @Ken that seems to be a trend. At my niece's school they wanted to buy new laptops while neglecting basic infrastructure like decrepit bathrooms.
	6:49pm steve: i teach college and absolutely refuse to allow students on Facebook. lately i tell them on the first day of class, if i ever catch you on Facebook during class, i will open the window (we're high up in a tall building) take your laptop, throw it at someone in the street and try to hit them, then when the cops come i'll tell them you did it. then when you're in jail i'll make an appointment to come visit you to apologize, and have you sitting there waiting and not show up.
	6:49pm melinda: @Brian I didn't get the ping, but glad you liked it! I avoided it for years for some reason and then wondered why.
	6:50pm steve: you're doin a great job Phil
	6:50pm Linda Lee: steve ~ great flair for drama there :-)
	6:51pm Evan From Seattle: steve you are the best professor ever just from that.
	6:51pm βrian: "Gantlet," not "Gauntlet!"
	6:51pm glenn: i like steve's attitude.
	6:51pm Carmichael: I'm old, so I'm not glued to my phone like my daughters. But this is still a big business power play.
	6:51pm Linda Lee: hello dark web!
	6:51pm rw: In my experience one way to reduce kids’ phone time is for their parents to limit their own phone time.
	6:51pm βrian: [Sorry!]
	6:52pm Linda Lee: too sensible rw ~
	6:52pm glenn: i wouldn't have the faintest idea about accessing the dark web.
	6:52pm listener james from westwood: The FCC targets grass-roots efforts to set up alternate networks. There's one afoot in Detroit to bring net to access deserts; expect it to be attacked if NN gets the axe, esp. b/c it's something that benefits nonwhites.
	6:52pm Linda Lee: @glenn ~ not too hard, apparently.
	6:52pm Krys O.: Depression in adolescence on NIH.gov www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov...
	6:53pm Dean: I've said it before on this comment board: Treating social networks as "digital technology," mere electronic tools suitable for performing certain functions in certain contexts, misses the network effect factor. These are not "just tools," because unlike ordinary tools--hammers, can openers, even automobiles, to some extent--we can't successfully use them unless many, many others adopt them, too. Thus, there is extraordinary pressure to adopt them, not only from vendors but from other users.
	6:53pm βrian: Waiting for the band, "Dire Detroit."
	6:53pm Evan From Seattle: They're not just tools they're weapons.
	6:54pm Linda Lee: thanks for the link Krys O! so, are we talking about an increase in symptoms empirically observed? must i really read David Brooks for his sources? :-D
	6:54pm Tommy in Neversink: What about all the liberal billionaires getting together and starting their own version of Comcast for people who want an open internet
	6:55pm dale: i remember when calculators were banned in my physics class. but we could still hold a big handful of liquid mercury.
	6:55pm Michael 98145: now & then cities talk about setting up a public internet service provider -- not sure if any have succeeded
	6:56pm βrian: Ok, again, I think we need a Zazen segment in the classroom.
	6:56pm northguineahills: Thanks Mark, good talk!
	6:56pm Linda Lee: @Dean ~ yep, inexact analogy. @Tommy in Neversink ~ assuming billionaires as a class always look for reasonable return on investment. incompatible with free access to information.
	6:56pm Evan From Seattle: lol when you have billions there is no liberal or conservative only "how to i turn this into trillions?" everything else is just posturing.
	6:56pm Bea: I find it distracting when people are on laptops in meetings and looking at social media/unrelated websites!
	6:56pm Linda Lee: agree Evan.
	6:57pm coelacanth∅: so far, optimum hasn't been caught trying to limit the internet, as far as i know.
	6:57pm βrian: 52nd & Broadway? Is that in Des Moines?
	6:57pm Michael 98145: thanks for this discussion
	6:57pm northguineahills: I always stand to the side when I look at my phone when I walk on the sidewalk.
	6:58pm melinda: I don't think it's unreasonable to ban laptops from a classroom, given the addictive qualities of screen devices.
	6:58pm Linda Lee: thank you Mark.
	🤖 6:58pm Ken From Hyde Park: Jeff Bezos' net worth reached $100 billion over the weekend. Crimony!
	6:58pm coelacanth∅: Thanks Mark
	6:58pm Linda Lee: melinda ~ the phones have to go too, then.
	6:58pm Phil with the phone: what a jam
	6:59pm listener james from westwood: Thanks for the comprehensive program and the bevy of links, too!
	6:59pm dale: tiny rap dancer!
	6:59pm melinda: @Linda some teachers do that too.
	6:59pm Bea: Dale - you beat me to the punch!
	7:00pm Linda Lee: i would do so, if i taught. it's hard enough to engage them ..
	7:00pm Linda Lee: unfortunately we're dealing with addiction syndromes now.
	7:01pm melinda: I would ban devices as well.
	7:01pm Michael 98145: pass me the claret
	7:01pm Krys O.: @Linda Lee The gist of the NIH article is that depression has organic or genetic connections and it's not a completely learned behavior. Blaming technology does no good especially in the interest of mental health which could actually derive some benefit from technology facilitating communication.
	7:01pm Linda Lee: could be counter productive to pull a device from someone who can't engage at all. best to use the technology in teaching, ultimately. restrict access to bullsh*t.
	7:03pm Linda Lee: Krys O ~ so, not either/or really. that makes sense too.
	7:03pm Krys O.: In the past television and popular music were blamed for the corrupting our youth.
	7:04pm Linda Lee: not entirely wrong either. in terms of instilling consumerism, for example.
	7:04pm Linda Lee: .. which isn't a healthy behavior.
	7:05pm Linda Lee: .. but i'm aware that wasn't generally the kind of corruption that was frowned upon by authorities.
	7:10pm Krys O.: From personal experience, social media and technology helped me to leave an abusive relationship and it helps me to communicate with my doctor about my health issues.
	7:12pm melinda: I meant I would ban devices in the classroom unless they are necessary for in-class work. They can help people engage in other contexts but in the classroom it's a distraction.
	🤖 12:05am Webhamster Henry: Hi - I was away, otherwise I'd have put in my two cents. Or maybe a quarter. One way to stop FB usage in the class or workplace is to stop having classes or work - that's going to happen sooner than you think.(cf the AI show) Another is to put the restricted wifi zone in a Faraday cage, and only allow access on a super firewalled internal network. They will still be able to to mesh network among themselves, but will need at least one leak to hit the unrestricted big I Internet. Online distraction predates the Internet and text messaging, via dialup to big commercial and privately hosted BBSes, and before then, on interoffice mail systems. There was good old note passing and whispering too.

Techtonic with Mark Hurst: Playlist from November 27, 2017

View Mark Hurst's profile

Conversations with creators and thinkers who are charting the way forward in a tech-saturated society. In our shift to a digital future, we need alternatives to Big Tech. Homepage: techtonic.fm

Also available as an MP3 podcast. More info at our Podcast Central page.

<-- Previous playlist | Back to Techtonic with Mark Hurst playlists | Next playlist -->

Upcoming events:

Mon. Nov 11th, 6pm - 7pm: Station Mgr Ken Guest Hosts Techtonic: Music and the Military (More info...)
Station Manager Ken welcomes David Suisman (pronounced: Soosman) on his new book "Instruments of War: Music and the Making of America's Soldiers." David and Ken will be discussing David's study of music's role in the making of the US military and the making of war.
Mon. Nov 18th, 6pm - 7pm: Astronomer Samantha Lawler returns to Techtonic (More info...)
Thousands of Elon Musk's SpaceX satellites will re-enter Earth's atmosphere in the next few years, adding huge amounts of metals and chemicals to our atmosphere. Astronomer Samantha Lawler returns to Techtonic to explain why satellite "mega-constellations" are causing havoc for astronomers and will soon affect all life on earth.
Mon. Dec 23rd, 6pm - 7pm: Don Fleming guest hosts Techtonic

November 27, 2017: Tech on campus, feat. a Real Live College Student. Also, Net Neutrality news

Listen to this show: Pop-up listen Pop-up player!

This week, discussing tech on campus with a real live college student. But first, news on net neutrality:

Pro-net neutrality...

• Comic strip about net neutrality (NSFW language)
• New York Times: "The FCC plans to dismantle.. equal access to the internet, clearing the way for companies to charge more and block access to some websites"
• Reddit post summarizing recent news (from a pro-net-neutrality angle)
• Also from Reddit, see this comment from a user who has lived through non-neutral Internet access
• Ars Technica article on Comcast rolling back its promise to support open internet access

...and questioning the importance of net neutrality:

• Bloomberg article: "Have you ever used your Kindle to connect to wireless to download new books from your Amazon account? That too is a kind of nonneutrality. You can download the books, but you can’t use that same wireless connection for more general purposes."
• Another Bloomberg article points out that "China has proven very effective at censoring the internet, and as market power has consolidated in the tech industry, so have [American] private firms... our experience of the internet is increasingly controlled by a handful of firms, most especially Google and Facebook."
• Comments on Philip Greenspun's blog question the effectiveness of a government-regulated solution.

Tech on campus pointers:

• How Evil Is Tech? by David Brooks
• Laptops Are Great. But Not During a Lecture or a Meeting. by Susan Dynarski, U. Michigan professor

Finally, subscribe to the Techtonic podcast to catch up on past episodes.

Artist	Track	Approx. start time
Tech on campus: Mark interviews a real live university student to understand how tech is affecting college life. Also: Mark's comments on net neutrality.
Tomaš Dvořák	Game Boy Tune "Game Boy Tune" by "Tomaš Dvořák"
	Mark's intro and Net Neutrality comments	0:02:16 (Pop-up)
	Interview with Real Live College Student	0:21:44 (Pop-up)
	Clips: How tech affects students "Clips: How tech affects students"	0:33:26 (Pop-up)
	Your comments and calls at 201-209-9368	0:46:38 (Pop-up)
Andy Rehfeldt	Can't Touch This / Tiny Dancer (Andy Rehfeldt mashup)	0:56:44 (Pop-up)

RSS feeds for Techtonic with Mark Hurst: Playlists feed | MP3 archives feed

| E-mail Mark Hurst | Other WFMU Playlists | All artists played by Techtonic with Mark Hurst |

Listener comments!
	6:03pm melinda: hi all!
	6:05pm listener james from westwood: Evening, Mark, melinda, and all!
	6:07pm Listener Robert: How did WFMU's streaming fare BEFORE net neutrality was adopted ~2 yrs. ago?
	6:11pm Linda Lee: so pleased to hear Techtonic tonight. good evening everyone.
	6:12pm Linda Lee: do believe it's older than that, Listener Robert :-)
	🤖 6:13pm Ken From Hyde Park: Net Neuter-ality
	6:13pm Michael 98145: @LR, i believe there was some throttling performed by monopolies like Comcast
	6:14pm Linda Lee: didn't feel it! good comic.
	6:14pm Michael 98145: ... but that only hit large file downloads
	6:16pm Linda Lee: what was the "founding spirit" of US military development of the web? do wonder about that.
	6:16pm Listener Robert: No, it was discussed for many yrs., and not adopted by Congress, but the FCC adopted it by interpretation only about 2 yrs. ago.
	6:18pm Linda Lee: ah. ok. it's been under attack for longer than it's been official then.
	6:20pm Michael 98145: the internetwork was developed to provide connectivity without specific message routing
	6:21pm Tommy in Neversink: Congress doesn't decide , go to the FCC's site and comment
	6:21pm Evan From Seattle: Facebook, Google, Amazon are in favor of net neutrality because its good for everyone and keeps them from having to pay more to retain users. But if it goes away, they are the ones that would benefit almost as much as the utility companies since the barrier to entry for any online enterprise would go way up because they could pay to keep everyone out of the fast lane (and create their own for the "little people" - basically like what Amazon already does with their 3rd party sellers). Its a grim future, even more so without net neutrality.
	6:22pm Barbara: Thank you for this clear and insightful analysis. I really needed to hear it. Please archive as soon as possible. It needs to be heard widely.
	6:22pm Listener Robert: But 20 yrs. ago we HAD companies offering these private nets with gateways to the Internet, and the Internet won. That is, the traffic wound up going overwhelmingly thru the Internet rather than to the private content -- and prices came down, too. So what would make you think companies would want to go back to the less profitable service they couldn't sell then?
	6:22pm Mark Hurst: Hi all! Thanks for the good comments. Will be drawing on these comments & your calls later in the show.
	6:24pm Michael 98145: i remember the days when -networking- meant leased phone lines
	6:24pm Linda Lee: @Tommy in Neversink ~ yes, 5 people are in charge of this decision. ~ beta.latimes.com...
	6:25pm Tommy in Neversink: Robert, IKR......that's what I keep thinking . Net Neutrality didn't' start until 2015 and the net worked pretty good before that
	6:26pm Tommy in Neversink: Linda....yes, two will vote to keep neutrality and 3 will vote against it , as it stand now
	6:27pm Evan From Seattle: 20 years ago what happened was broadband started going mainstream. Cable and DSL. Private networks, that you used to be able to get your dial up internet access from back in the day started trying to compete by offering DSL packages, but they died because the landscape became less about choice and more about speed, and the phone companies that controlled the infrastructure came out with their own offerings that killed the small providers, many of who moved into business networking infrastructure if they were able to survive. And nobody could compete with cable for the same reason, because they controlled the infrastructure and nobody could use it. That's why there's like "two" competing DSL providers in an area but only the one cable company.
	6:29pm Michael 98145: turn off your instagram and listen to music - www.instagram.com...
	6:30pm Tommy in Neversink: Evan....you sure do your homework
	6:30pm listener james from westwood: No easily dorm-accessible internet back during my college days; had I gone merely a couple of years later, I'd have been in the AOL/Compuserve era. Had I gone post-FB et al, I'd have a GPA of like –3.
	6:31pm melinda: @james same here.
	6:32pm Michael 98145: never realized in 1989 that today i'd be listening to FMU
	6:33pm βrian: I love that you can punctuate easily on an iPhone, or add diacritics. But beyond that ...
	6:34pm Tommy in Neversink: Why is assumed that the providers will be anti -progressive. We are probably over half their market
	6:34pm βrian: Not cutting down trees; burning oil/coal instead.
	6:34pm steve: in the past year ive killed all my non-business related facebook, twitter, instagram and now am looking to downgrade from my iphone... but i need a map to find my way around nyc and elsewhere... is there halfway point between a classic flip phone and a smartphone that will give me google maps or something similar but no web browser etc... or should i revert to paper maps (which i'd be open to)?
	6:36pm dale: i've never had a smart phone. last flip phone was an lg that i had for 8 years and i only upgraded to a bigger lg flip phone because my eyes weren't what they were.
	6:36pm listener james from westwood: Good interview and slice of life! Interesting that he and others at UVA struggle w/ deleting apps, kicking the habit, etc. Breaks the stereotype of unheeding, mindless use of social media that some folks my age & older have re: the yout', as Joe Pesci might say.
	6:36pm coelacanth∅: i have a "smartphone" with a call/text plan. $15./month. i would've preferred a basic flip phone but they don't offer them, even though it's a non-internet plan. ...i fucking hate the touch screen bullshit. so inefficient and illogical.
	6:37pm melinda: I like paper maps.
	6:37pm Dean: A colleague of mine, Diane Mizrachi at UCLA, has been studying undergraduate students' preferences for print or digital when they study. There are strong preferences for print. http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0099133315000506
	6:38pm coelacanth∅: steve they (you know -"they") sell excellent laminated maps of the city, and a different one of the 5 boroughs, that fold into a manageable size. a good investment.
	6:38pm Evan From Seattle: Thanks Tommy, but I just lived through it and watched it happen from having internet early on to relying on it for my work today. And the providers will be anti-progressive because its more profitable. Businesses don't have ideals beyond making money. And there's a lot more money to be made by controlling the flow of information than doing something nice for people.
	6:39pm dale: my wife is browsing on her smart phone right now - even though she has a laptop and an ipad and desktop computer. i'm sure she goes way over her time/data.
	6:39pm steve: another reason social media breaks people's brains (maybe he said this) is that it tells people to rely on external rewards (likes, which simply equal approval of others) rather than internal rewards.
	6:40pm steve: good advice coela... i remember those! i used to have one of manhattan.
	6:41pm Evan From Seattle: Also, as more and more people have cut the cord internet providers such as comcast have put in data transfer limits. I've gotten hit with warnings from them about it just from backing up my 15+ years of digital family photo archives to cloud service backups. This is going to continue and prices will go up across the board without net neutrality.
	6:41pm βrian: Three days of complete solitude, at least once every year or two.
	6:42pm Linda Lee: stands to reason that less direct social engagement = depression. that's a given. & girls will own up.
	6:42pm Evan From Seattle: Facebook I believe got busted for experimenting with their news feed algorithim a few months ago to manipulate people into seeing depressing stuff then serving them more targeted ads. There was some sort of trouble with the EU about it, I think it was in France. They are evil incarnate.
	6:44pm melinda: Not at all surprising that laptops and tablets are distractions.
	6:44pm βrian: Screen discipline comes from within.
	6:44pm Linda Lee: ~Tommy ~ i'm assuming attention to the bottom line primarily is always regressive.
	🤖 6:45pm Ken From Hyde Park: The school district here is rolling out Chromebooks for all the students. Erk!
	6:45pm βrian: @Hey, Melinda!
	6:45pm melinda: hi Brian!
	6:46pm Linda Lee: apparently still allowed here in the states, Evan.
	6:46pm Krys O.: I believe that depressive behavior in teenage girls predates the smartphone. It's a societal issue, not one of technology. There are SO MANY other reasons why young women begin to show a marked increase in low self-esteem. I am skeptical of the corollary drawn in the study that Brooks quotes. Oh, and Brooks is notorious for making uninformed leaps of logic.
	6:46pm Linda Lee: steve, i think we always rely on external rewards. human nature ~ which is being exploited.
	6:47pm βrian: @Melinda: Watched Fishing with John, if you didn't get my ping. Lovely! Thanks.
	6:48pm βrian: SAYPs!
	6:48pm Phil with the phone: Call in at 201-209-9368!
	6:48pm Evan From Seattle: The other problem with losing net neutrality is we can say goodbye to entrepreneurship and the myth of "just a guy in his garage with a great idea" that seems to have started with Steve Jobs but is now attached to Jeff Bezos. It's hard enough as it is to make a go with a legitimate business without serious funding, let alone a startup, but imagine if you can't get your app or information about it out there without substantially paying, or that people interested might not be able to go to your site because their plan only includes Facebook and Amazon, and closes off the rest of the net. I'll shut up now, I'm just so glad to have a place to discuss this and hear about it on WFMU. Such a great show.
	6:48pm Phil with the phone: I am the greatest
	6:48pm Linda Lee: Krys O, aren't they discussing an increase in symptoms from some determined baseline?
	6:49pm Linda Lee: not that i'm a fan of David Brooks. he's silly.
	6:49pm melinda: @Ken that seems to be a trend. At my niece's school they wanted to buy new laptops while neglecting basic infrastructure like decrepit bathrooms.
	6:49pm steve: i teach college and absolutely refuse to allow students on Facebook. lately i tell them on the first day of class, if i ever catch you on Facebook during class, i will open the window (we're high up in a tall building) take your laptop, throw it at someone in the street and try to hit them, then when the cops come i'll tell them you did it. then when you're in jail i'll make an appointment to come visit you to apologize, and have you sitting there waiting and not show up.
	6:49pm melinda: @Brian I didn't get the ping, but glad you liked it! I avoided it for years for some reason and then wondered why.
	6:50pm steve: you're doin a great job Phil
	6:50pm Linda Lee: steve ~ great flair for drama there :-)
	6:51pm Evan From Seattle: steve you are the best professor ever just from that.
	6:51pm βrian: "Gantlet," not "Gauntlet!"
	6:51pm glenn: i like steve's attitude.
	6:51pm Carmichael: I'm old, so I'm not glued to my phone like my daughters. But this is still a big business power play.
	6:51pm Linda Lee: hello dark web!
	6:51pm rw: In my experience one way to reduce kids’ phone time is for their parents to limit their own phone time.
	6:51pm βrian: [Sorry!]
	6:52pm Linda Lee: too sensible rw ~
	6:52pm glenn: i wouldn't have the faintest idea about accessing the dark web.
	6:52pm listener james from westwood: The FCC targets grass-roots efforts to set up alternate networks. There's one afoot in Detroit to bring net to access deserts; expect it to be attacked if NN gets the axe, esp. b/c it's something that benefits nonwhites.
	6:52pm Linda Lee: @glenn ~ not too hard, apparently.
	6:52pm Krys O.: Depression in adolescence on NIH.gov www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov...
	6:53pm Dean: I've said it before on this comment board: Treating social networks as "digital technology," mere electronic tools suitable for performing certain functions in certain contexts, misses the network effect factor. These are not "just tools," because unlike ordinary tools--hammers, can openers, even automobiles, to some extent--we can't successfully use them unless many, many others adopt them, too. Thus, there is extraordinary pressure to adopt them, not only from vendors but from other users.
	6:53pm βrian: Waiting for the band, "Dire Detroit."
	6:53pm Evan From Seattle: They're not just tools they're weapons.
	6:54pm Linda Lee: thanks for the link Krys O! so, are we talking about an increase in symptoms empirically observed? must i really read David Brooks for his sources? :-D
	6:54pm Tommy in Neversink: What about all the liberal billionaires getting together and starting their own version of Comcast for people who want an open internet
	6:55pm dale: i remember when calculators were banned in my physics class. but we could still hold a big handful of liquid mercury.
	6:55pm Michael 98145: now & then cities talk about setting up a public internet service provider -- not sure if any have succeeded
	6:56pm βrian: Ok, again, I think we need a Zazen segment in the classroom.
	6:56pm northguineahills: Thanks Mark, good talk!
	6:56pm Linda Lee: @Dean ~ yep, inexact analogy. @Tommy in Neversink ~ assuming billionaires as a class always look for reasonable return on investment. incompatible with free access to information.
	6:56pm Evan From Seattle: lol when you have billions there is no liberal or conservative only "how to i turn this into trillions?" everything else is just posturing.
	6:56pm Bea: I find it distracting when people are on laptops in meetings and looking at social media/unrelated websites!
	6:56pm Linda Lee: agree Evan.
	6:57pm coelacanth∅: so far, optimum hasn't been caught trying to limit the internet, as far as i know.
	6:57pm βrian: 52nd & Broadway? Is that in Des Moines?
	6:57pm Michael 98145: thanks for this discussion
	6:57pm northguineahills: I always stand to the side when I look at my phone when I walk on the sidewalk.
	6:58pm melinda: I don't think it's unreasonable to ban laptops from a classroom, given the addictive qualities of screen devices.
	6:58pm Linda Lee: thank you Mark.
	🤖 6:58pm Ken From Hyde Park: Jeff Bezos' net worth reached $100 billion over the weekend. Crimony!
	6:58pm coelacanth∅: Thanks Mark
	6:58pm Linda Lee: melinda ~ the phones have to go too, then.
	6:58pm Phil with the phone: what a jam
	6:59pm listener james from westwood: Thanks for the comprehensive program and the bevy of links, too!
	6:59pm dale: tiny rap dancer!
	6:59pm melinda: @Linda some teachers do that too.
	6:59pm Bea: Dale - you beat me to the punch!
	7:00pm Linda Lee: i would do so, if i taught. it's hard enough to engage them ..
	7:00pm Linda Lee: unfortunately we're dealing with addiction syndromes now.
	7:01pm melinda: I would ban devices as well.
	7:01pm Michael 98145: pass me the claret
	7:01pm Krys O.: @Linda Lee The gist of the NIH article is that depression has organic or genetic connections and it's not a completely learned behavior. Blaming technology does no good especially in the interest of mental health which could actually derive some benefit from technology facilitating communication.
	7:01pm Linda Lee: could be counter productive to pull a device from someone who can't engage at all. best to use the technology in teaching, ultimately. restrict access to bullsh*t.
	7:03pm Linda Lee: Krys O ~ so, not either/or really. that makes sense too.
	7:03pm Krys O.: In the past television and popular music were blamed for the corrupting our youth.
	7:04pm Linda Lee: not entirely wrong either. in terms of instilling consumerism, for example.
	7:04pm Linda Lee: .. which isn't a healthy behavior.
	7:05pm Linda Lee: .. but i'm aware that wasn't generally the kind of corruption that was frowned upon by authorities.
	7:10pm Krys O.: From personal experience, social media and technology helped me to leave an abusive relationship and it helps me to communicate with my doctor about my health issues.
	7:12pm melinda: I meant I would ban devices in the classroom unless they are necessary for in-class work. They can help people engage in other contexts but in the classroom it's a distraction.
	🤖 12:05am Webhamster Henry: Hi - I was away, otherwise I'd have put in my two cents. Or maybe a quarter. One way to stop FB usage in the class or workplace is to stop having classes or work - that's going to happen sooner than you think.(cf the AI show) Another is to put the restricted wifi zone in a Faraday cage, and only allow access on a super firewalled internal network. They will still be able to to mesh network among themselves, but will need at least one leak to hit the unrestricted big I Internet. Online distraction predates the Internet and text messaging, via dialup to big commercial and privately hosted BBSes, and before then, on interoffice mail systems. There was good old note passing and whispering too.

Techtonic with Mark Hurst: Playlist from November 27, 2017

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