WFMU: Techtonic with Mark Hurst: Playlist from July 25, 2022

Listener comments!
	🤖 6:00pm Handy Haversack: Mark and all the Techyon Drives! Exceedingly glad to be here with youse!
	6:00pm ultradamno: Mark! Techtoncursionists!
	6:02pm arb: Hi Mark! Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles was my first live concert lol
	🤖 6:03pm PaulRobeson1922: Hello, WFMU Land!!
	🤖 6:03pm DjLorraine: Hi all
	🤖 6:04pm Bas NL: Hi Mark! Techportationists!
	🤖 6:04pm Webhamster Henry: Hi Mark and friends! Four ICE wheels bad! two bike wheels good!
	6:06pm GC in Baltimore: I heard that Verso has good parties at their Brooklyn store.
	6:07pm Franco Twinkie: Hello Mark.
	6:08pm Mark Hurst: Hi @Handy, @ultra, @arb, @PaulR, @DjL, @Bas, @webham, @Franco! Appreciate you joining this evening.
	6:08pm Mark Hurst: @arb heh who knew that the turtles would lead to an esteemed creative musical career!
	6:09pm Franco Twinkie: I got out of bed just for you Mark.
	🤖 6:09pm Webhamster Henry: Mark, for fun, you should start every show with "Alexa! turn on WFMU! Hey Siri! turn on WFMU!"
	6:09pm Mark Hurst: @webham true - there's probably some other things I'd tell Alexa & Siri to do, too
	🤖 6:09pm Webhamster Henry: Get creative!
	6:09pm Mark Hurst: @Franco well thank you, hope it's worth it
	6:10pm Franco Twinkie: It always is.
	🤖 6:11pm Webhamster Henry: Over at the Century House, I show our collection of horse carriages and point out that, especially out of the Big City, horsed and horseless carriages shared the road for a long time.
	6:11pm dale: i think going back to streetcars in cities would be fine. but people probably got killed by them too.
	🤖 6:12pm chresti: Hi Mark and techtonicans!
	6:12pm Baja Joe: Hello mark and all Techies listening in. This is a rare occasion when I'm listening live at home and not on the road- driving a danger car.
	6:12pm coelacanth∅: there was a law in england that cars' maximum speed was 5mph, there had to be both a driver and a technician on board, and someone had to walk in front of it waving a flag
	6:12pm ultradamno: www.thestar.com...
	6:12pm coelacanth∅: (or maybe the technician could be the flag waver)
	6:14pm Ted Herman: Hey Mark — Ted here, a Yoyodyne alum…Jennifer Blakeslee (perviously Konig) and I attended health conferences of yours in NYC quite a while ago…listening from Easter CT… cheers!
	6:14pm WR: auto lobbyist did all they could to subvert public transportation.
	🤖 6:14pm PaulRobeson1922: The Great Railcar Conspiracy in Los Angeles??
	6:14pm Franco Twinkie: Those three killed the red car in L.A.
	6:15pm chresti: In LA for sure
	6:15pm Greg from ZONE 5: I have Robert Caro's biography of Robert Moses sitting on my kitchen table. Sounds like this would pair nicely.
	🤖 6:15pm Webhamster Henry: @WR auto lobbyists invented the crime of "Jay walking"
	🤖 6:16pm Webhamster Henry: @Greg from Zone 5 I like how Moses never learned to drive and couldn't believe Caro when he told him that the LIE was always jammed up.
	🤖 6:16pm Ken From Hyde Park: If we're going to have cars, there should be a dedicated lane for WFMU listeners.
	6:16pm listener 126464: I get 30-35 miles per ravioli
	6:17pm Dean: This is consistent with Robert Britt Horwitz's findings in his The Irony of Regulatory Reform: The Deregulation of American Telecommunications. In some cases the corporations themselves want to be regulated to help assure monopoly control. https://global.oup.com/academic/product/the-irony-of-regulatory-reform-9780195054453?cc=us&lang=en&#
	6:17pm Greg from ZONE 5: @Henry: HA! Looking forward to that.
	6:18pm Julian in LA: LA used to have the best transit system in the world... now we have the worst traffic on the planet
	6:18pm dale: robert moses loved the car.
	6:19pm Ted Herman: Important to factor in the many diatribes of James Howard Kunstler on this topic…thought his politics are off the wall and I think he may be a psycho…but his ability to articulate the pervasive thrall of the automobile is substantive and compelling
	6:19pm castor: My favorite movie as a kid was Who Framed Roger Rabbit, but it wasn’t until I watched it as an adult that I understood that it was actually about this automobile conspiracy.
	🤖 6:19pm MarciB: Such an interesting topic. My FiL's older brother - a kid at the time- was killed by a car in the early days. My FiL was named after him.
	6:19pm Franco Twinkie: Julian, in a few places the rite of way for The Pacific Electric still exist.
	6:19pm Rolando: The biggest problem with registered business is that it indemnifies the owners, (the crooks, in many instances) even worse is that business has some sort of legal standing in law (sort of like a real person). Same with cars, - horrible and wrong !!!
	6:19pm Julian in LA: it's 2023 and we still dont have a train to the airport or UCLA.. it's insane. its like 150$ uber to get home from the airport it's HELL
	6:20pm steveo: Thanks for this topic. Cars ruin cities
	6:20pm Mark Hurst: @TedH hey nice to hear from you! Thanks for joining in. I've enjoyed Kunstler's writing over the years.
	🤖 6:20pm MarciB: Both my father and grandfather ran car dealerships (1930s-1980s). Of course I never heard any of this, but I've never owned a car.
	🤖 6:21pm Webhamster Henry: @Ted Herman right - JH Kunstler is great on the Geography of Nowhere, but super libertarian.
	🤖 6:21pm Handy Haversack: It was a Bush-administration law that changed the classification so that "SUVs" became cars instead of trucks, right? Always attributed to pressure from oil since they were less fuel efficient than cars. So the whole trend can of course be traced back to capitalism's growth and profit at any cost ethos.
	6:21pm Mark Hurst: @Greg good point - if I remember right, Paris mentions Robert Moses in the book a few times.
	6:21pm Dean: And yet one of the longest running--and to my ear most intelligent--radio shows is KPFK's The Car Show. Another irony. https://www.kpfk.org/on-air/car-show-the/
	6:22pm Julian in LA: ooof and the trains here go nowhere because no one wants them in their hood. so we spend billions on trains to nowhere that no one uses. everyone in CA wants to support public transit becuase it's the right thing to do but no one wants it in their backyard so they just waste billions
	6:22pm Franco Twinkie: Agreed Dean.
	6:22pm Jackie G: With all the cars in America the kids can't play in the street anymore. Kids don't really play outside much today. That's one reason they're so fat.
	6:22pm coelacanth∅: p.o.s.ronnie raygun not only obliterated fuel mileage requirements -as soon as he got into office; but he initiated monetary incentives to buy "suvs"
	6:23pm chresti: A gas shortage/high prices Might make monster trucks less desirable
	🤖 6:23pm Bas NL: We need pedestrian airbags.
	6:23pm David in London: Evening Mark and all Technoids.
	6:23pm Dean: When I lived in LA, Franco, I listened almost every week. And I don't care much about cars at all.
	6:23pm Mark Hurst: @DiL welcome, sir - hope you're staying cool
	🤖 6:23pm Handy Haversack: Canyonero! It's a squirrel-smashing deer-stomping driving machine! Evening, David!
	6:24pm Franco Twinkie: I hate riding the train in L.A. It takes forever to get anyplace.
	6:24pm Rolando: Just think of all the jobs that will be lost when sell driving trucks turn up on the streets. Think of all the men and women who will be without work, or worse degraded to sitting in a truck at a very basic pay, just to keep an eye on the computer driven truck. (sort of like a baby sitter)
	6:24pm Jackie G: ...and kids don't walk anywhere. They are driven everywhere, in cars. Walk to school!?
	6:24pm Julian in LA: @Franco Twinkie there are little bits here and there..... in highland park where i live there is almost a functional train station
	6:25pm Dean: Took RTD (the bus) from far east edge of LA County to Westwood one day. Four hours.
	🤖 6:25pm PaulRobeson1922: @Julian in LA @6:19: & the driver gets about $40 to sit in traffic for an hour & twenty minutes UCLA is a strange place
	6:25pm Mark Hurst: @Rolando the documentary "The Truth About Killer Robots" covers that exact scenario - deskilling of truck drivers - www.wfmu.org...
	🤖 6:25pm Handy Haversack: My friend lived in Highland Park and worked in Pasadena and got by without a car for two years, I think, before he caved in.
	6:25pm ultradamno: I don't like subways for the same reason I don't like elevators. The threat of being stuck in an enclosed space with randos is too high.
	6:26pm Julian in LA: the train in LA goes nowhere. you can ride it for 2 hours, get close the spend $50 to get you the rest of the way on an UBER and yeah 3-4 hours for a train ride....1-2 hours to drive to get anywhere
	🤖 6:26pm Webhamster Henry: Battery chemistry is going to change because it has to.
	6:26pm Jackie G: When people walk today it's only to walk the dog (while talking on the cel phone)
	6:26pm Julian in LA: UCLA is very very strange. it's in Bel Air basically... there is no public transit anda 1 br apt is like $3500. it s a disaster
	6:27pm Franco Twinkie: Jill Lepore wrote a great article about the reboot of the VW bus in this weeks New Yorker. It's all electric - the VW BUZZ they're calling it.
	6:27pm Dean: Electric cars generate particulate matter just like internal combustion. Tires deteriorate.
	🤖 6:27pm Webhamster Henry: When I lived in NYC, I was a super pedestrian - I rarely even took subways or taxis. Now that I'm up the river, I'm on my bike a lot.
	🤖 6:28pm Handy Haversack: When another friend had an interview at UCLA, I begged him to hail a cab and say, "Yo holmes, to Bel Air!" It would have been only like a $10 bit! So worth it!
	6:28pm Franco Twinkie: I had a real good gig across the street from UCLA. I stopped doing it because the drive is so horrible.
	🤖 6:28pm Webhamster Henry: I don't know if I could have biked to WFMU from Brooklyn, though
	6:29pm Julian in LA: except we have no cab in LA lol
	6:29pm coelacanth∅: "suv" owners need to be heavily surcharged and the drivers should be required to take specific driving lessons and pay for a rider on their license. their tolls should be higher on toll roads. i've been saying this for decades. ...any vehicle of a certain minimum weight &/or height.
	6:30pm Dean: I attended grad school at UCLA. Had to depart east LA County very early in the morning to get to campus with lower risk of traffic issues. This was in the late '80s. Way worse nowadays.
	6:30pm Mark Hurst: @Dean good point - tires generate air pollution, too - even on (gasp) EVs!
	6:30pm Franco Twinkie: WAY WORSE!!
	🤖 6:30pm Handy Haversack: WHH, I guess you can go over the GWB on a bike. Seems like taking it on the PATH might be more efficient, though.
	🤖 6:31pm Handy Haversack: Tire pollution is affecting the oceans as well.
	6:31pm Julian in LA: Uber was great before surge pricing
	🤖 6:31pm Webhamster Henry: Strong Towns is big on making transportation more equitable , and as a side effect, cities and towns get better. www.strongtowns.org
	6:31pm Julian in LA: used to be you could acutally use it in LA to get around but with surge pricing .... well it's always F@#cking surge pricing here.
	6:32pm ultradamno: I don't see how uber was ever going to cut down on car use, if everyone was just paying other people to drive them
	6:32pm Julian in LA: unless you travel between 10 and and 10:05 you're paying triple the price
	🤖 6:32pm Webhamster Henry: Uber and Lyft are non-solutions up here in the Mid Hudson, although there was a real push to get them licensed state wide.
	6:33pm Ted Herman: Kunstler points out that with the advent of peak oil, the ability to make tires for even bicycles, let alone cars, will be severely limited and will require alternative material design and engineering to come up with alternatives for vehicles of any type that require conventional tires as we know them today.
	🤖 6:33pm Handy Haversack: Uber destroyed traffic in NYC. I mean, it was bad, but now it takes three hours to get across the East River from the West Side of Manhattan.
	🤖 6:34pm Handy Haversack: www.theguardian.com... "Tyres"
	6:34pm Julian in LA: it's just funny man like i left NYC 6 years ago thinking i'd save money in LA but you pay like 400-500 a month on gas and insurance... it's insane.
	6:35pm Franco Twinkie: I had to zero out my odometer last week because I wanted to see long it would take to reset the sensor on the air mass meter. 138 miles in one week just driving around home. I hate driving anywhere.
	6:37pm dday: There is NO form of energy that does not produce some form of waste by-product. Reducing vehicles is fine IF you live in an urban area. If you don't, vehicle transport is necessary. I spent years as a field service technician, which required me to drive my (or my company's) truck,to buildings all over NJ, NY,CT & at one time nationwide. The idea that I can earn a living without a vehicle (As buildings don't come to me, I go to them) is absurd. Iwish it were not the case but..if wishes were horses..and even horses produce waste by products
	6:38pm Julian in LA: @franco twinkie my avg commute time from highland park to UCLA is 1.5 hrs. ... avg speed 5 mph avg cost roundtrip $12.00 distance 20 miles
	🤖 6:39pm PaulRobeson1922: @dday: www.thriftbooks.com... Somethings you do for $ and some you do for love
	6:40pm Franco Twinkie: That sound about right Julian. When I was working just west of downtown, I never got on the freeway. Side streets all the way.
	6:40pm dday: Well PR: while I agree with the sentiment..love don't pay my bills
	6:41pm Ted Herman: Under the asphalt, even in small river towns in the NY Hudson Valley, are the tracks of former trolley lines that were paved over to make way for the advent of the automobile…we’re going to have to severely rethink how people get around en masse.
	6:41pm Monica: not taking away anything from the Uber against arguments but the TCL did themselves in big time. who the hell wants to drive around in a dirty car with their knees in their chest staring at a crappy tv screen directly in your face. they didn't HAVE to improve and so they didn't. cabs became a costly and awful experience. no warm and fuzzy feelings for an industry with no foresight and little regard for their customers. feel awful for all those drivers that lost their life savings on medallions. but you just can't lay all this at Uber's feet.
	6:41pm dale: uber served communities not served by taxi services so it's not an pples to apples comparison.
	🤖 6:42pm PaulRobeson1922: 🎵Having read the book🎶
	6:42pm SeaCreature: Like it or not, these Ride services extend service to burbs that don’t have extensive hours for taxi service. Not like the uk where there’s a mini cab seemingly everywhere.
	6:43pm coelacanth∅: one thing's for damn sure -i wont alter my path for a powered scooter, bicycle, skateboard etc they shouldn't be allowed on the sidewalk at all.
	6:44pm dday: and rural areas...I can't even get a pizza delivered..Uber? What's that? Lyft..not here
	6:44pm coelacanth∅: they're children that wont grow out of their robot fantasies
	6:45pm Jackie G: Yeah, sidewalks are made for walking. Now if only the people would walk on the sidewalks.
	6:45pm Julian in LA: lets talk about uber eats too.... you can't even get delivery in LA eveything is UBER eats which costs tons and takes forever
	6:45pm ultradamno: Yeah, it's a very not only urban, but metropolitan model
	🤖 6:45pm Ken From Hyde Park: If not sidewalks, then hyperloops.
	6:45pm dale: mo - and i was kicked out of cabs in manhattan i hailed because i said i was going to brooklyn. one cbbie dumped me out at the toll booths of the brooklyn nattery tunnel!
	6:46pm dday: @PR1922 : https://www.abebooks.com/Beatles-Read-Book-Paperback-Greg-Sterlace/18678148902/bd
	6:46pm The Butterman: Coal rollin’! Remember coal rollin’! We’re doomed.
	6:46pm dale: i'm so mad i can't even spell!
	🤖 6:46pm Handy Haversack: Jackie, where I am, the sidewalks are walked on. Julian, we will order only from places in the neighborhood that use their own delivery people and that we can call on the phone to place our order. And we tell places that tell us to just use an app that they're losing our business and that of anyone who will listen to us.
	🤖 6:46pm Webhamster Henry: @dale, I'd load in the baby stroller first before saying "Prospect Heights!"
	6:46pm Julian in LA: They're not trying to solve problems.. they just trying to flip apps and sell their "technology" to Google
	6:47pm Julian in LA: @handy Haversack I do the same thing! i always call and try to give my $$ to the business
	6:48pm Julian in LA: good show Mark thank you!
	6:48pm Jim the Poet: I want a robot to carry me around
	6:48pm dale: henry - i lived in windsor terrace and that meant a long drive back for them without a fare.
	6:49pm dale: i'd always tip well. but not if you dump my ass out.
	6:49pm Franco Twinkie: My neighborhood has great sidewalks that are empty for the most part. I walk around stoned out of my mind and never encounter another person...ever.
	6:50pm dale: franco twinkie - not that you know of.
	🤖 6:50pm Ken From Hyde Park: Sorry, Jim. Futurama has shown us that the future is going to be pneumatic tubes. (Also, Jack Mello filling in for Bluminoid tonight.)
	6:50pm Julian in LA: and they actually go through tires much faster than gas powered cars... like twice as fast.. ask anone with a TESLA
	6:50pm Nick K: What about all the resources to make a lithium ion battery
	6:50pm dday: @Jim The Poet: Call Tobor The 8 Man
	6:50pm Jim the Poet: Big Tube Always Wins
	6:51pm Franco Twinkie: Stay home.
	🤖 6:51pm Webhamster Henry: Let's ride Boston Dynamics robot mules then.
	6:51pm dday: Batteries are filthy things internally. Ask India where most of our electronic waste ends up
	🤖 6:51pm PaulRobeson1922: The industrial applications of Tungsten are…
	6:51pm Julian in LA: @franco twinkie the thing i like to say about LA is people walk for desperation or recreation but not transportation... basically you're either homeless or walking your dog... or yeah stoned and wandering lol
	6:52pm Marie: Hopefully, working from home has reduced usage? Has anyone looked at that? Hi everybody!
	6:52pm dale: transporters. gene roddenberry got it right.
	6:52pm Rolando: Cities need to be designed to be more friendly to human traffic and less friendly to cars.
	6:52pm Nick K: I work for a company that makes materials for electric car batteries and it requires a boatload of energy
	🤖 6:52pm Handy Haversack: Many thanks, Mark and Harris. Another great one. Good talks here, all.
	6:53pm The Count of Al Dente: We may need a benevolent dictator who will require most everyone to use public transit.
	6:54pm NSZ: being in Manhattan, I prefer taking public transport, it's one of the perks of being in the city. Safety is a big concern now in taking public transportation. I've heard similar sentiment of preference to drive than take a train or bus for this reason.
	🤖 6:54pm Webhamster Henry: @dale Seth Brundle created his transporter in The Fly because he didn't want to drive and I felt intense representation.
	6:55pm steveo: SUV grilles are 100% about intimidation.
	6:55pm dday: PR1922" lining for nuclear fusion reactors is one
	6:55pm Peter from Dover NJ: What Steveo said.
	6:55pm Marie: I heard there's an inverse correlation between car size and ___ size in men... So, on that theory, Chump would have a huge vehicle
	6:55pm dale: i don't want to be brundlefly. but brundleunicorn would be cool.
	🤖 6:56pm PaulRobeson1922: @dday: source?
	6:56pm Julian in LA: if you go to Austin it's pretty crazy how everyone has a F350 truck and if you have a regular car it can be quite scary tbh..
	6:56pm jan: @Mark: SUVs are fetishes much like AR-15 assault rifles. Most consumers don't need assault rifles or cars modeled after military vehicles, but they can look so bad ass with them.
	🤖 6:57pm chresti: Monster trucks benefit the oil industry
	6:57pm dday: PR1922: https://engineer.utk.edu/tungsten-for-fusion/
	🤖 6:57pm PaulRobeson1922: They are fun! Thats why@jan for fun, that’s all
	6:57pm McGroovey: I drive a VW Jetta. Is that small?
	6:57pm ultradamno: Between Hummers and Escalades and Rams and F450s just a car that's no more than one needs has been a rarity for a long time
	6:57pm Julian in LA: and they try to drive the F350 like its a BMW and so there are accidents constantly... with people who driive enourmous trucks like they can handle well....HUGE mammoth trucks and all they do is drive 2 miles to HEB. those trucks never see a trail
	6:58pm GC in Baltimore: Biden is a huge letdown after promising support for Amtrak etc…..now he’s groveling at the Saudis
	🤖 6:58pm PaulRobeson1922: @McGroovy: designed for the autobahn
	6:58pm dale: discussion should go back to zero population growth as well if you want to complain about resources people need to move about.
	6:58pm Pomme d'Or: Thanks Mark!
	6:58pm Nick K: First time I heard of a AR15 fetishized
	6:58pm Rolando: Thankfully we don't have 350's here in Australia !!
	6:58pm Picante Mint: Great show Mark!
	6:58pm Franco Twinkie: When a friend saw my Landcruiser, she said "It has a Tumba Burro!" I'm like what? "A wrecking bar to knock over donkey's!" Who knew?
	6:58pm Choggie: I have bull rocks in my driver side door....rolling caltrops
	6:59pm Picante Mint: lol
	🤖 6:59pm chresti: Thanks Mark!
	6:59pm David in London: Thanks Mark.
	6:59pm mndave: Unexplained deaths are a matter for the courts!
	🤖 6:59pm Handy Haversack: CANYONERO!!!!
	🤖 6:59pm PaulRobeson1922: Thanks Mark!
	6:59pm Choggie: Thanks again Mr. Hurst
	6:59pm coelacanth∅: Thanks Mark!
	🤖 6:59pm Ken From Hyde Park: Canyonero!
	6:59pm mndave: Fires* argh. Great show Mark!
	6:59pm Marie: Priceless!
	7:00pm The Count of Al Dente: I want to get paid to name vehicles.
	7:00pm Saltonstall: Handy in the Haus! Incredible! Dave Dudley-esque!
	7:00pm Choggie: Squirrel-squashin'
	🤖 7:00pm Bas NL: Thanks Mark! Thanks Paris!
	7:00pm ultradamno: Land Shark is the ultimate car name. Kudos Fang!
	🤖 7:00pm PaulRobeson1922: Thanks Paris!
	7:01pm Choggie: The Ford Caliphate
	🤖 7:01pm Webhamster Henry: So much fun tonight! Till next time!
	🤖 7:01pm Will a Sound Guy: Thank you Mark Hurst!!!!
	7:02pm Franco Twinkie: This was great! Thanks Mark.
	7:02pm Choggie: 16 cylinder straight, 4200 HP
	7:02pm McGroovey: I remember when I was a kid, the Roads of the Future were supposed to have a "third rail" that the Cars of the Future would make contact with to power their electric motors (no batteries). What happened to that idea?
	7:03pm The Count of Al Dente: The 4WD Empanada.
	7:03pm Choggie: Name your own SUV
	🤖 7:03pm chresti: Thanks Paris!
	7:04pm Julian in LA: yeah mark a really great show. i feel like i could have listened for 12 more hours on this topic
	7:04pm Choggie: Chrysler Omnipitor
	7:05pm Choggie: The Chevy Sunblock ®
	🤖 7:05pm Ken From Hyde Park: Ford Festilence
	🤖 7:05pm chresti: I remember the economy cars that came out late 70s-early 80s after the gas shortage.
	7:05pm Mark Hurst: Thanks, everyone, good chat this evening!
	2:13am ohme: What a great episode Mark! Listened to it 2 days in the future and was surprised to find out no one here in the listener comments mentioned the "Road to Nowhere" song from 1985 by the Talking Heads! vimeo.com...
	6:01pm Jay: Not sure if its true or not, but I also heard that it requires alot of water to mine lithium, and lithium is usually mined in hot deserts, one mine that may be opened is in Nevada at the thacker pass. How can the southwest afford to use more water as is? Would they take water rights from farmers? Would food prices go up further as a result as well. This electric car push is bullshit imo.

Techtonic with Mark Hurst: Playlist from July 25, 2022

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Conversations with creators and thinkers who are charting the way forward in a tech-saturated society. In our shift to a digital future, we need alternatives to Big Tech. Homepage: techtonic.fm

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Mon. Nov 25th, 6pm - 7pm: Technology we're thankful for (More info...)
Amidst all the headlines about predatory tech companies and misbehaving billionaires, we're taking a moment to remember that some tech is actually good. Drawing on listener submissions, Mark will discuss the tools, gadgets, and systemsthat people are genuinely thankful for.
Mon. Dec 23rd, 6pm - 7pm: Don Fleming guest hosts Techtonic

July 25, 2022: Paris Marx, author, "Road to Nowhere: What Silicon Valley Gets Wrong about the Future of Transportation"

Listen to this show: Pop-up listen Pop-up player!

Today: Paris Marx, author, "Road to Nowhere: What Silicon Valley Gets Wrong about the Future of Transportation"

• parismarx.com

• Tech Won't Save Us podcast

• Road to Nowhere: What Silicon Valley Gets Wrong about the Future of Transportation, published by Verso

• How Corporate America Created Car Culture - And What We Can Do To Change It, by Paris Marx – on the Liberatory Potential of Ursula K. Le Guin’s Ideas About Technology (LitHub, July 21, 2022)

• Uber broke laws, duped police and secretly lobbied governments, leak reveals (The Guardian, July 10, 2022): “More than 124,000 confidential documents were leaked to the Guardian. The former Uber CEO told executives ‘violence guarantees success.’”

• The Uber files tell a simple truth: democracy depends on curbing mercenary tech giants (by Rafael Behr in the Guardian, July 11, 2022): "These revelations reveal the political credulity and negligence that has surrounded the growing power of Silicon Valley."

• April 1, 2019 episode with Sam Schwartz, aka "Gridlock Sam," on autonomous vehicles and "No One at the Wheel" (speaking about recent SUV grill designs and the rise in serious pedestrian injury)

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PODCAST: Subscribe to the Techtonic podcast

Artist	Track	Approx. start time
Paris Marx, author, "Road to Nowhere: What Silicon Valley Gets Wrong about the Future of Transportation"
Tomaš Dvořák	Game Boy Tune "Game Boy Tune" by "Tomaš Dvořák"
	Mark's intro "Mark's intro"	0:00:19 (Pop-up)
	Interview with Paris Marx "Interview with Paris Marx"	0:04:46 (Pop-up)
	Mark's comments "Mark's comments"	0:45:09 (Pop-up)
The Simpsons	Canyonero "Canyonero" by "The Simpsons"	0:56:21 (Pop-up)

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Listener comments!
	🤖 6:00pm Handy Haversack: Mark and all the Techyon Drives! Exceedingly glad to be here with youse!
	6:00pm ultradamno: Mark! Techtoncursionists!
	6:02pm arb: Hi Mark! Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles was my first live concert lol
	🤖 6:03pm PaulRobeson1922: Hello, WFMU Land!!
	🤖 6:03pm DjLorraine: Hi all
	🤖 6:04pm Bas NL: Hi Mark! Techportationists!
	🤖 6:04pm Webhamster Henry: Hi Mark and friends! Four ICE wheels bad! two bike wheels good!
	6:06pm GC in Baltimore: I heard that Verso has good parties at their Brooklyn store.
	6:07pm Franco Twinkie: Hello Mark.
	6:08pm Mark Hurst: Hi @Handy, @ultra, @arb, @PaulR, @DjL, @Bas, @webham, @Franco! Appreciate you joining this evening.
	6:08pm Mark Hurst: @arb heh who knew that the turtles would lead to an esteemed creative musical career!
	6:09pm Franco Twinkie: I got out of bed just for you Mark.
	🤖 6:09pm Webhamster Henry: Mark, for fun, you should start every show with "Alexa! turn on WFMU! Hey Siri! turn on WFMU!"
	6:09pm Mark Hurst: @webham true - there's probably some other things I'd tell Alexa & Siri to do, too
	🤖 6:09pm Webhamster Henry: Get creative!
	6:09pm Mark Hurst: @Franco well thank you, hope it's worth it
	6:10pm Franco Twinkie: It always is.
	🤖 6:11pm Webhamster Henry: Over at the Century House, I show our collection of horse carriages and point out that, especially out of the Big City, horsed and horseless carriages shared the road for a long time.
	6:11pm dale: i think going back to streetcars in cities would be fine. but people probably got killed by them too.
	🤖 6:12pm chresti: Hi Mark and techtonicans!
	6:12pm Baja Joe: Hello mark and all Techies listening in. This is a rare occasion when I'm listening live at home and not on the road- driving a danger car.
	6:12pm coelacanth∅: there was a law in england that cars' maximum speed was 5mph, there had to be both a driver and a technician on board, and someone had to walk in front of it waving a flag
	6:12pm ultradamno: www.thestar.com...
	6:12pm coelacanth∅: (or maybe the technician could be the flag waver)
	6:14pm Ted Herman: Hey Mark — Ted here, a Yoyodyne alum…Jennifer Blakeslee (perviously Konig) and I attended health conferences of yours in NYC quite a while ago…listening from Easter CT… cheers!
	6:14pm WR: auto lobbyist did all they could to subvert public transportation.
	🤖 6:14pm PaulRobeson1922: The Great Railcar Conspiracy in Los Angeles??
	6:14pm Franco Twinkie: Those three killed the red car in L.A.
	6:15pm chresti: In LA for sure
	6:15pm Greg from ZONE 5: I have Robert Caro's biography of Robert Moses sitting on my kitchen table. Sounds like this would pair nicely.
	🤖 6:15pm Webhamster Henry: @WR auto lobbyists invented the crime of "Jay walking"
	🤖 6:16pm Webhamster Henry: @Greg from Zone 5 I like how Moses never learned to drive and couldn't believe Caro when he told him that the LIE was always jammed up.
	🤖 6:16pm Ken From Hyde Park: If we're going to have cars, there should be a dedicated lane for WFMU listeners.
	6:16pm listener 126464: I get 30-35 miles per ravioli
	6:17pm Dean: This is consistent with Robert Britt Horwitz's findings in his The Irony of Regulatory Reform: The Deregulation of American Telecommunications. In some cases the corporations themselves want to be regulated to help assure monopoly control. https://global.oup.com/academic/product/the-irony-of-regulatory-reform-9780195054453?cc=us&lang=en&#
	6:17pm Greg from ZONE 5: @Henry: HA! Looking forward to that.
	6:18pm Julian in LA: LA used to have the best transit system in the world... now we have the worst traffic on the planet
	6:18pm dale: robert moses loved the car.
	6:19pm Ted Herman: Important to factor in the many diatribes of James Howard Kunstler on this topic…thought his politics are off the wall and I think he may be a psycho…but his ability to articulate the pervasive thrall of the automobile is substantive and compelling
	6:19pm castor: My favorite movie as a kid was Who Framed Roger Rabbit, but it wasn’t until I watched it as an adult that I understood that it was actually about this automobile conspiracy.
	🤖 6:19pm MarciB: Such an interesting topic. My FiL's older brother - a kid at the time- was killed by a car in the early days. My FiL was named after him.
	6:19pm Franco Twinkie: Julian, in a few places the rite of way for The Pacific Electric still exist.
	6:19pm Rolando: The biggest problem with registered business is that it indemnifies the owners, (the crooks, in many instances) even worse is that business has some sort of legal standing in law (sort of like a real person). Same with cars, - horrible and wrong !!!
	6:19pm Julian in LA: it's 2023 and we still dont have a train to the airport or UCLA.. it's insane. its like 150$ uber to get home from the airport it's HELL
	6:20pm steveo: Thanks for this topic. Cars ruin cities
	6:20pm Mark Hurst: @TedH hey nice to hear from you! Thanks for joining in. I've enjoyed Kunstler's writing over the years.
	🤖 6:20pm MarciB: Both my father and grandfather ran car dealerships (1930s-1980s). Of course I never heard any of this, but I've never owned a car.
	🤖 6:21pm Webhamster Henry: @Ted Herman right - JH Kunstler is great on the Geography of Nowhere, but super libertarian.
	🤖 6:21pm Handy Haversack: It was a Bush-administration law that changed the classification so that "SUVs" became cars instead of trucks, right? Always attributed to pressure from oil since they were less fuel efficient than cars. So the whole trend can of course be traced back to capitalism's growth and profit at any cost ethos.
	6:21pm Mark Hurst: @Greg good point - if I remember right, Paris mentions Robert Moses in the book a few times.
	6:21pm Dean: And yet one of the longest running--and to my ear most intelligent--radio shows is KPFK's The Car Show. Another irony. https://www.kpfk.org/on-air/car-show-the/
	6:22pm Julian in LA: ooof and the trains here go nowhere because no one wants them in their hood. so we spend billions on trains to nowhere that no one uses. everyone in CA wants to support public transit becuase it's the right thing to do but no one wants it in their backyard so they just waste billions
	6:22pm Franco Twinkie: Agreed Dean.
	6:22pm Jackie G: With all the cars in America the kids can't play in the street anymore. Kids don't really play outside much today. That's one reason they're so fat.
	6:22pm coelacanth∅: p.o.s.ronnie raygun not only obliterated fuel mileage requirements -as soon as he got into office; but he initiated monetary incentives to buy "suvs"
	6:23pm chresti: A gas shortage/high prices Might make monster trucks less desirable
	🤖 6:23pm Bas NL: We need pedestrian airbags.
	6:23pm David in London: Evening Mark and all Technoids.
	6:23pm Dean: When I lived in LA, Franco, I listened almost every week. And I don't care much about cars at all.
	6:23pm Mark Hurst: @DiL welcome, sir - hope you're staying cool
	🤖 6:23pm Handy Haversack: Canyonero! It's a squirrel-smashing deer-stomping driving machine! Evening, David!
	6:24pm Franco Twinkie: I hate riding the train in L.A. It takes forever to get anyplace.
	6:24pm Rolando: Just think of all the jobs that will be lost when sell driving trucks turn up on the streets. Think of all the men and women who will be without work, or worse degraded to sitting in a truck at a very basic pay, just to keep an eye on the computer driven truck. (sort of like a baby sitter)
	6:24pm Jackie G: ...and kids don't walk anywhere. They are driven everywhere, in cars. Walk to school!?
	6:24pm Julian in LA: @Franco Twinkie there are little bits here and there..... in highland park where i live there is almost a functional train station
	6:25pm Dean: Took RTD (the bus) from far east edge of LA County to Westwood one day. Four hours.
	🤖 6:25pm PaulRobeson1922: @Julian in LA @6:19: & the driver gets about $40 to sit in traffic for an hour & twenty minutes UCLA is a strange place
	6:25pm Mark Hurst: @Rolando the documentary "The Truth About Killer Robots" covers that exact scenario - deskilling of truck drivers - www.wfmu.org...
	🤖 6:25pm Handy Haversack: My friend lived in Highland Park and worked in Pasadena and got by without a car for two years, I think, before he caved in.
	6:25pm ultradamno: I don't like subways for the same reason I don't like elevators. The threat of being stuck in an enclosed space with randos is too high.
	6:26pm Julian in LA: the train in LA goes nowhere. you can ride it for 2 hours, get close the spend $50 to get you the rest of the way on an UBER and yeah 3-4 hours for a train ride....1-2 hours to drive to get anywhere
	🤖 6:26pm Webhamster Henry: Battery chemistry is going to change because it has to.
	6:26pm Jackie G: When people walk today it's only to walk the dog (while talking on the cel phone)
	6:26pm Julian in LA: UCLA is very very strange. it's in Bel Air basically... there is no public transit anda 1 br apt is like $3500. it s a disaster
	6:27pm Franco Twinkie: Jill Lepore wrote a great article about the reboot of the VW bus in this weeks New Yorker. It's all electric - the VW BUZZ they're calling it.
	6:27pm Dean: Electric cars generate particulate matter just like internal combustion. Tires deteriorate.
	🤖 6:27pm Webhamster Henry: When I lived in NYC, I was a super pedestrian - I rarely even took subways or taxis. Now that I'm up the river, I'm on my bike a lot.
	🤖 6:28pm Handy Haversack: When another friend had an interview at UCLA, I begged him to hail a cab and say, "Yo holmes, to Bel Air!" It would have been only like a $10 bit! So worth it!
	6:28pm Franco Twinkie: I had a real good gig across the street from UCLA. I stopped doing it because the drive is so horrible.
	🤖 6:28pm Webhamster Henry: I don't know if I could have biked to WFMU from Brooklyn, though
	6:29pm Julian in LA: except we have no cab in LA lol
	6:29pm coelacanth∅: "suv" owners need to be heavily surcharged and the drivers should be required to take specific driving lessons and pay for a rider on their license. their tolls should be higher on toll roads. i've been saying this for decades. ...any vehicle of a certain minimum weight &/or height.
	6:30pm Dean: I attended grad school at UCLA. Had to depart east LA County very early in the morning to get to campus with lower risk of traffic issues. This was in the late '80s. Way worse nowadays.
	6:30pm Mark Hurst: @Dean good point - tires generate air pollution, too - even on (gasp) EVs!
	6:30pm Franco Twinkie: WAY WORSE!!
	🤖 6:30pm Handy Haversack: WHH, I guess you can go over the GWB on a bike. Seems like taking it on the PATH might be more efficient, though.
	🤖 6:31pm Handy Haversack: Tire pollution is affecting the oceans as well.
	6:31pm Julian in LA: Uber was great before surge pricing
	🤖 6:31pm Webhamster Henry: Strong Towns is big on making transportation more equitable , and as a side effect, cities and towns get better. www.strongtowns.org
	6:31pm Julian in LA: used to be you could acutally use it in LA to get around but with surge pricing .... well it's always F@#cking surge pricing here.
	6:32pm ultradamno: I don't see how uber was ever going to cut down on car use, if everyone was just paying other people to drive them
	6:32pm Julian in LA: unless you travel between 10 and and 10:05 you're paying triple the price
	🤖 6:32pm Webhamster Henry: Uber and Lyft are non-solutions up here in the Mid Hudson, although there was a real push to get them licensed state wide.
	6:33pm Ted Herman: Kunstler points out that with the advent of peak oil, the ability to make tires for even bicycles, let alone cars, will be severely limited and will require alternative material design and engineering to come up with alternatives for vehicles of any type that require conventional tires as we know them today.
	🤖 6:33pm Handy Haversack: Uber destroyed traffic in NYC. I mean, it was bad, but now it takes three hours to get across the East River from the West Side of Manhattan.
	🤖 6:34pm Handy Haversack: www.theguardian.com... "Tyres"
	6:34pm Julian in LA: it's just funny man like i left NYC 6 years ago thinking i'd save money in LA but you pay like 400-500 a month on gas and insurance... it's insane.
	6:35pm Franco Twinkie: I had to zero out my odometer last week because I wanted to see long it would take to reset the sensor on the air mass meter. 138 miles in one week just driving around home. I hate driving anywhere.
	6:37pm dday: There is NO form of energy that does not produce some form of waste by-product. Reducing vehicles is fine IF you live in an urban area. If you don't, vehicle transport is necessary. I spent years as a field service technician, which required me to drive my (or my company's) truck,to buildings all over NJ, NY,CT & at one time nationwide. The idea that I can earn a living without a vehicle (As buildings don't come to me, I go to them) is absurd. Iwish it were not the case but..if wishes were horses..and even horses produce waste by products
	6:38pm Julian in LA: @franco twinkie my avg commute time from highland park to UCLA is 1.5 hrs. ... avg speed 5 mph avg cost roundtrip $12.00 distance 20 miles
	🤖 6:39pm PaulRobeson1922: @dday: www.thriftbooks.com... Somethings you do for $ and some you do for love
	6:40pm Franco Twinkie: That sound about right Julian. When I was working just west of downtown, I never got on the freeway. Side streets all the way.
	6:40pm dday: Well PR: while I agree with the sentiment..love don't pay my bills
	6:41pm Ted Herman: Under the asphalt, even in small river towns in the NY Hudson Valley, are the tracks of former trolley lines that were paved over to make way for the advent of the automobile…we’re going to have to severely rethink how people get around en masse.
	6:41pm Monica: not taking away anything from the Uber against arguments but the TCL did themselves in big time. who the hell wants to drive around in a dirty car with their knees in their chest staring at a crappy tv screen directly in your face. they didn't HAVE to improve and so they didn't. cabs became a costly and awful experience. no warm and fuzzy feelings for an industry with no foresight and little regard for their customers. feel awful for all those drivers that lost their life savings on medallions. but you just can't lay all this at Uber's feet.
	6:41pm dale: uber served communities not served by taxi services so it's not an pples to apples comparison.
	🤖 6:42pm PaulRobeson1922: 🎵Having read the book🎶
	6:42pm SeaCreature: Like it or not, these Ride services extend service to burbs that don’t have extensive hours for taxi service. Not like the uk where there’s a mini cab seemingly everywhere.
	6:43pm coelacanth∅: one thing's for damn sure -i wont alter my path for a powered scooter, bicycle, skateboard etc they shouldn't be allowed on the sidewalk at all.
	6:44pm dday: and rural areas...I can't even get a pizza delivered..Uber? What's that? Lyft..not here
	6:44pm coelacanth∅: they're children that wont grow out of their robot fantasies
	6:45pm Jackie G: Yeah, sidewalks are made for walking. Now if only the people would walk on the sidewalks.
	6:45pm Julian in LA: lets talk about uber eats too.... you can't even get delivery in LA eveything is UBER eats which costs tons and takes forever
	6:45pm ultradamno: Yeah, it's a very not only urban, but metropolitan model
	🤖 6:45pm Ken From Hyde Park: If not sidewalks, then hyperloops.
	6:45pm dale: mo - and i was kicked out of cabs in manhattan i hailed because i said i was going to brooklyn. one cbbie dumped me out at the toll booths of the brooklyn nattery tunnel!
	6:46pm dday: @PR1922 : https://www.abebooks.com/Beatles-Read-Book-Paperback-Greg-Sterlace/18678148902/bd
	6:46pm The Butterman: Coal rollin’! Remember coal rollin’! We’re doomed.
	6:46pm dale: i'm so mad i can't even spell!
	🤖 6:46pm Handy Haversack: Jackie, where I am, the sidewalks are walked on. Julian, we will order only from places in the neighborhood that use their own delivery people and that we can call on the phone to place our order. And we tell places that tell us to just use an app that they're losing our business and that of anyone who will listen to us.
	🤖 6:46pm Webhamster Henry: @dale, I'd load in the baby stroller first before saying "Prospect Heights!"
	6:46pm Julian in LA: They're not trying to solve problems.. they just trying to flip apps and sell their "technology" to Google
	6:47pm Julian in LA: @handy Haversack I do the same thing! i always call and try to give my $$ to the business
	6:48pm Julian in LA: good show Mark thank you!
	6:48pm Jim the Poet: I want a robot to carry me around
	6:48pm dale: henry - i lived in windsor terrace and that meant a long drive back for them without a fare.
	6:49pm dale: i'd always tip well. but not if you dump my ass out.
	6:49pm Franco Twinkie: My neighborhood has great sidewalks that are empty for the most part. I walk around stoned out of my mind and never encounter another person...ever.
	6:50pm dale: franco twinkie - not that you know of.
	🤖 6:50pm Ken From Hyde Park: Sorry, Jim. Futurama has shown us that the future is going to be pneumatic tubes. (Also, Jack Mello filling in for Bluminoid tonight.)
	6:50pm Julian in LA: and they actually go through tires much faster than gas powered cars... like twice as fast.. ask anone with a TESLA
	6:50pm Nick K: What about all the resources to make a lithium ion battery
	6:50pm dday: @Jim The Poet: Call Tobor The 8 Man
	6:50pm Jim the Poet: Big Tube Always Wins
	6:51pm Franco Twinkie: Stay home.
	🤖 6:51pm Webhamster Henry: Let's ride Boston Dynamics robot mules then.
	6:51pm dday: Batteries are filthy things internally. Ask India where most of our electronic waste ends up
	🤖 6:51pm PaulRobeson1922: The industrial applications of Tungsten are…
	6:51pm Julian in LA: @franco twinkie the thing i like to say about LA is people walk for desperation or recreation but not transportation... basically you're either homeless or walking your dog... or yeah stoned and wandering lol
	6:52pm Marie: Hopefully, working from home has reduced usage? Has anyone looked at that? Hi everybody!
	6:52pm dale: transporters. gene roddenberry got it right.
	6:52pm Rolando: Cities need to be designed to be more friendly to human traffic and less friendly to cars.
	6:52pm Nick K: I work for a company that makes materials for electric car batteries and it requires a boatload of energy
	🤖 6:52pm Handy Haversack: Many thanks, Mark and Harris. Another great one. Good talks here, all.
	6:53pm The Count of Al Dente: We may need a benevolent dictator who will require most everyone to use public transit.
	6:54pm NSZ: being in Manhattan, I prefer taking public transport, it's one of the perks of being in the city. Safety is a big concern now in taking public transportation. I've heard similar sentiment of preference to drive than take a train or bus for this reason.
	🤖 6:54pm Webhamster Henry: @dale Seth Brundle created his transporter in The Fly because he didn't want to drive and I felt intense representation.
	6:55pm steveo: SUV grilles are 100% about intimidation.
	6:55pm dday: PR1922" lining for nuclear fusion reactors is one
	6:55pm Peter from Dover NJ: What Steveo said.
	6:55pm Marie: I heard there's an inverse correlation between car size and ___ size in men... So, on that theory, Chump would have a huge vehicle
	6:55pm dale: i don't want to be brundlefly. but brundleunicorn would be cool.
	🤖 6:56pm PaulRobeson1922: @dday: source?
	6:56pm Julian in LA: if you go to Austin it's pretty crazy how everyone has a F350 truck and if you have a regular car it can be quite scary tbh..
	6:56pm jan: @Mark: SUVs are fetishes much like AR-15 assault rifles. Most consumers don't need assault rifles or cars modeled after military vehicles, but they can look so bad ass with them.
	🤖 6:57pm chresti: Monster trucks benefit the oil industry
	6:57pm dday: PR1922: https://engineer.utk.edu/tungsten-for-fusion/
	🤖 6:57pm PaulRobeson1922: They are fun! Thats why@jan for fun, that’s all
	6:57pm McGroovey: I drive a VW Jetta. Is that small?
	6:57pm ultradamno: Between Hummers and Escalades and Rams and F450s just a car that's no more than one needs has been a rarity for a long time
	6:57pm Julian in LA: and they try to drive the F350 like its a BMW and so there are accidents constantly... with people who driive enourmous trucks like they can handle well....HUGE mammoth trucks and all they do is drive 2 miles to HEB. those trucks never see a trail
	6:58pm GC in Baltimore: Biden is a huge letdown after promising support for Amtrak etc…..now he’s groveling at the Saudis
	🤖 6:58pm PaulRobeson1922: @McGroovy: designed for the autobahn
	6:58pm dale: discussion should go back to zero population growth as well if you want to complain about resources people need to move about.
	6:58pm Pomme d'Or: Thanks Mark!
	6:58pm Nick K: First time I heard of a AR15 fetishized
	6:58pm Rolando: Thankfully we don't have 350's here in Australia !!
	6:58pm Picante Mint: Great show Mark!
	6:58pm Franco Twinkie: When a friend saw my Landcruiser, she said "It has a Tumba Burro!" I'm like what? "A wrecking bar to knock over donkey's!" Who knew?
	6:58pm Choggie: I have bull rocks in my driver side door....rolling caltrops
	6:59pm Picante Mint: lol
	🤖 6:59pm chresti: Thanks Mark!
	6:59pm David in London: Thanks Mark.
	6:59pm mndave: Unexplained deaths are a matter for the courts!
	🤖 6:59pm Handy Haversack: CANYONERO!!!!
	🤖 6:59pm PaulRobeson1922: Thanks Mark!
	6:59pm Choggie: Thanks again Mr. Hurst
	6:59pm coelacanth∅: Thanks Mark!
	🤖 6:59pm Ken From Hyde Park: Canyonero!
	6:59pm mndave: Fires* argh. Great show Mark!
	6:59pm Marie: Priceless!
	7:00pm The Count of Al Dente: I want to get paid to name vehicles.
	7:00pm Saltonstall: Handy in the Haus! Incredible! Dave Dudley-esque!
	7:00pm Choggie: Squirrel-squashin'
	🤖 7:00pm Bas NL: Thanks Mark! Thanks Paris!
	7:00pm ultradamno: Land Shark is the ultimate car name. Kudos Fang!
	🤖 7:00pm PaulRobeson1922: Thanks Paris!
	7:01pm Choggie: The Ford Caliphate
	🤖 7:01pm Webhamster Henry: So much fun tonight! Till next time!
	🤖 7:01pm Will a Sound Guy: Thank you Mark Hurst!!!!
	7:02pm Franco Twinkie: This was great! Thanks Mark.
	7:02pm Choggie: 16 cylinder straight, 4200 HP
	7:02pm McGroovey: I remember when I was a kid, the Roads of the Future were supposed to have a "third rail" that the Cars of the Future would make contact with to power their electric motors (no batteries). What happened to that idea?
	7:03pm The Count of Al Dente: The 4WD Empanada.
	7:03pm Choggie: Name your own SUV
	🤖 7:03pm chresti: Thanks Paris!
	7:04pm Julian in LA: yeah mark a really great show. i feel like i could have listened for 12 more hours on this topic
	7:04pm Choggie: Chrysler Omnipitor
	7:05pm Choggie: The Chevy Sunblock ®
	🤖 7:05pm Ken From Hyde Park: Ford Festilence
	🤖 7:05pm chresti: I remember the economy cars that came out late 70s-early 80s after the gas shortage.
	7:05pm Mark Hurst: Thanks, everyone, good chat this evening!
	2:13am ohme: What a great episode Mark! Listened to it 2 days in the future and was surprised to find out no one here in the listener comments mentioned the "Road to Nowhere" song from 1985 by the Talking Heads! vimeo.com...
	6:01pm Jay: Not sure if its true or not, but I also heard that it requires alot of water to mine lithium, and lithium is usually mined in hot deserts, one mine that may be opened is in Nevada at the thacker pass. How can the southwest afford to use more water as is? Would they take water rights from farmers? Would food prices go up further as a result as well. This electric car push is bullshit imo.

Techtonic with Mark Hurst: Playlist from July 25, 2022

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